KNC Token Migration & Upgrade Discussion

Okey i get it, quorum period is just for proposals to pass, then there is another voting period of Yay, Pass or Nay.

But you didn’t mention my dynamic quorum idea. The Proposed dynamic quorum is based on previous participation, the necessary quorum will change depending of previous participation data, IF a proposal does not pass because it didn’t reach enough quorum the quorum will automatically be adjusted the next quorum period to a lower quorum, If the quorum was reached and surpassed, the next ephoc quorum will be adjusted to a higher quorum. Without dynamic quorum proposals are at risk of being discontinued and failing due to possible lack of participation.

This is only for the quorum of proposal passing, then voting Yay or Nay on the proposal voting period could also be dynamic based on participation.

Dynamic quorums can help, we should foresee future problems of lack of participation.

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Have you ever considered to implement a L2 solution just for “voting” - e.g. similar to the checkpoint system of MATIC (now polygon) or rollup solutions done by other projects.

This way users could vote in the DAO and the votes themselves are recorded on a L2 chain or even off-chain and then rolled up to the ETH mainnnet periodically. You could even “reserve” a small percentage of the DAO rewards to cover these gas costs.

This way every user could directly vote on the DAO and all the concerns regarding “big players” like Binance would probably go away (or at least no one could complain any more).

I think this would be way easier to implement than any possible L2 solution for trading on Kyber itself AND but it would benefit the whole ecosystem quite alot.

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From my point of view, native tokens can be used to incentive the various participants of a network and the various resource inputs.

In most scenarios, the inflation model helps the basic value growth by increasing the capital flow and economic activity in the system. And ultimately, this growth in turn leads to higher token prices.

We have to give up the idea that automatically increasing scarcity means more value. This is clearly not the case as seen from Kyber. We cannot blindly follow other DeFi projects but improving KNC to change with the times is important. If knc holders gain more value, there will be a lot more users trying to use kyber.

I also suggest changing KNC to another name so it is not so confusing.

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Thanks for your post Mr. Luu. My question concerns the increasing gas costs of using Ethereum.

Will the token migration and protocol additions have any affect on gas limits for KyberDAO voting and claiming rewards? Sorry if this is a stupid question and thanks for your time.

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Thank you for providing this proposals discussion - just thought I’d chime in, as a KNC holder & staker. I have read the majority of comments here, and agree with tomaave’s ideas, for the most part. I am still in two minds about the inflationary model, but certainly agree with the first part (Katana) propsal for permissionless DMM. I think that having the inflationary model as a future potential voteable option isn’t too much of a risk.

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After holding 2 years finally I exited from KNC. I sold all my holdings today. I didn’t see any confidence on this coin. Thanks for the team and others who want this network to be grow.

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From my point of view, native tokens can be used to incentive the various participants of a network and the various resource inputs.

In most scenarios, the inflation model helps the basic value growth by increasing the capital flow and economic activity in the system. And ultimately, this growth in turn leads to higher token prices.

We have to give up the idea that automatically increasing scarcity means more value. This is clearly not the case as seen from Kyber. We cannot blindly follow other DeFi projects but improving KNC to change with the times is important. If knc holders gain more value, there will be a lot more users trying to use kyber.

Ok, we can do it without inflation, just ask everyone to voluntarily donate part of their KNC to a descentralized pool so we can give free KNC to LP’s and Traders, let’s start with you donating part of your KNC. It would be exactly the same, but without inflation and it will be voluntarily!

How we could have thought that by giving our precious KNC to other people for free, it would have the effect of increasing the value of our remaining tokens. Oh, and also, burning tokens did not help at all? nothing? Then why ethereum will have a deflationary model with ETH 2.0 in a few years when it finally comes, if it does not help? Of course it does help for storing value, but for an asset to have value it must have an underlying utility behind it, an asset with a store of value property like programmable scarcity without an underlying utility is nothing.

For example, gold, gold is scarce, but scarcity does not make it to have value, is its underlying utilities, gold is useful as a ornamental item and electronics, if gold didn’t have all those utilities that creates demand for gold, even if scarce it wouldn’t have any value at all. So scarcity is only useful when the asset has an underlying utility behind it. Take ornamental and electronics utility out of gold and is just a boring scarce mineral, but in reality is NOT. Gold is a Store of value because of its underlying utilities + its scarcity properties.

Is exactly the same with KNC, KNC value comes directly related to kyberswap success, kyberswap utility is to facilitate swap to traders between ethereum assets, traders pay a fee for kyberswap service, value comes from trader paying that fee, which then part of it is paid to KNC holders and part is paid to LP,s.

Now you can argue that giving free KNC to LP’s and traders will incentivize them to use the platform, of course, you are giving them free ROI at expense of KNC holders, what you say is “capital flow” is basically redistribution of wealth. Then you can argue that, by giving free KNC to them, it will incentivize them to be “part of the ecosystem” and they will also be incentivized to buy off the markets and then we will be like AAVE, no? We just need to make it part of the tribe?

The solution is then giving free money taken from the wealthy or investors? Or the solution is to make KyberSwap competitive so we can attract more traders that will pay the exchange fee that will fund KyberDAO, that will make KNC price token to grow? I think, no sorry, i not just think, I KNOW is the second one. Because KNC price is tied to yield, annual yield paid in ETH liquid asset.

Now if you just want to include LP’s and Traders as part of the tribe (ecosystem) just print 1% a year, instead of 10%, it will have the same effect for the participants to “feel” of being “included into the tribe” so they can feel they are part of it and they are incentivized to buy off exchanges.

In any case, let’s give free KNC to traders instead of LP’s, so they can get a cash back, so they are incentivized to trade in our platform because with a cash back it would be cheaper for them versus the other platforms. If we give that cash back to them, they will pay the swap fee that will fund LP’s. :man_shrugging:t2:

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Technology-wise, I believe Kyber is much more advanced than other AMM models but lacking in terms of market adoption due to high gas and no permissionless liquidity provision.

But what if Kyber can solve these flaws, improve the tech more advanced and aggressively incentivize external parties to participate? It does sound realistic Kyber overtaking Uniswap’s volume in 2021.

Inflation is not working all the time, but it does have a positive effect in the short term to bring up the attention and engagements. Also, we will be the ones to decide all the safeguards anyway not the team, I don’t worry too much about this inflation model, we can slowly burn KNC once we see major adoptions in the market.

We just needs to come up with a brilliant incentive models, safeguards and Kyber come up with the solution to lower the gas and increase capital efficiency.

Either we can come up with the new token or change the current KNC to something like KCS(Kyber’s cornerstone) how Maker came up with SAI back then.

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my fav defi projects now are snx aave sushi knc. out of these, only knc is a deflation token gettin eth. i think this makes knc unique n should be kept for future plans. BUT, at tis time now sushi-style tokenomics with yield farming n inflation is more attractive to lps and even uniswap lost so much share of market https://insights.santiment.net/read/what-the-sushi-is-going-on%3F-5995 sushi is gd example to see. high supply but with big incentives for liquidity pool to lock up sushi

wat convince me is snx and sushi would not be here today for sure if they didnt give inflation rewards. no one would even look at their site tht time. recent dodo dex also givin yield farmin minin rewards and on binance launchpool resulting in big attention to their dex. aave also just started inflation model

knc token needs a super big change to stay in e game and i agree with Yes for migration for knc to have more flexible ability. of cos knc hodlers, users, and lps should b rewarded with tokens after. the dao should lock up more knc as much as possible too. this is only fair for hodlers acceptin more tokens circulatin in the market.

i vote for knc migration. we can accept short term pain now to increase growth, but we must be rewarded later for the risk we take now. this makes it fair for e knc community!

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Once inflation starts via democracy it might never stop. I will personally vote no with my 42000 KNC. Because i know what this short term thinking will lead us.

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@loiluu and @ShaneKyber I have been following Kyber for quite some time and the Kyber team has done a great job innovating in this space. Although there has been missed opportunities, I am glad to see that the team is adapting to the constant changes taking place in DeFi. I strongly support the changes included in Kyber 3.0 and just had a few questions regarding the Kyber teams thoughts on the direction of the new Kyber Token.

  1. What would the new “Max Supply” for the new token? ex. 21,000,000

  2. What would the exchange rate for the new token be after changes to the “Max Supply”? 10 KNC = 1 New KNC?

  3. Will there be a name change to the token name and ticker?

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Not related to new tokenomic but wanted to share an idea how to bring more KNC holders to stake and participate in KyberDAO: Starting IDO on KyberSwap

Kyber reaches out to teams who are interested in raising funds on Kyber platform. Anyone who has ethereum wallets can participate but we give the advantages to investors who staked KNC and participated in KyberDAO. The advantages can be like discounted token price or extra/fixed allocations for DAO members etc.

But these perks shouldn’t be available for users who staked KNC in the centralized exchanges including Binance. This way we can reduce the voting power of CEX and invite more retail investors who follow IDO-ing projects.

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So, I suppose this discussion has nothing to do with dmm/permissionless which will roll out in late March, and which will have no problem getting the votes from DAO. When will the DAO vote on migration proposals?

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The way i see it, is that we either subsidize the liquidity providers or we subsidize the traders. Who pays the subsidy? KNC Token holders. You might call it ll incentivizing/rewarding/inclusion/capital-flowing, or you can insert here any other name, but the REAL name is that is a SUBSIDY, there is no other way to call it, and it is wrong. Even if a majority vote to subsidize anything at their own expense, a minority should not be oppressed and obliged by the tyranny of the majority to subsidize whatever they want. Is morally wrong, not just because the majority has spoken, it makes it something morally fine.

Now let’s talk please about subsidies. Subsidizing LP’s versus Traders.

If we subsidize the lp’s, they will bring liquidity, but subsidizing traders can also bring liquidity, because if we subsidize traders, we give them this cash back that will make it cheaper for them to trade in our platform versus others swap platforms, this cashback alone will attract more traders which will result in more traders paying the KyberSwap exchange fee, which will result in more ETH in KyberDAO, with more ETH in KyberDAO, there will be more ETH to pay Liquid providers.

Just as LP’s are attracted to profitability, so the traders to discountability (seeking discounts or trading cheap).

So tell me guys, why is more objective to subsidize LP’s instead of traders? IF subsidizing the guys who trade at our platform will ultimately result on an increase of incentives for liquidity providers, which then will result in more liquidity?

Can anyone provide a convincing response?

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I don’t think anyone would disagree with you philosophically on these ideals. However, most people don’t see kyberdao as a constitutional republic established to protect life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. It’s some sort of common enterprise designed to earn token holders some income. We have agreed to nothing but a smart contract in which the majority prevails. Is it possible to incorporate some minority protection mechanism into a smart contract? Most likely. For example, you can add that certain important proposals (e.g., large increase in token supply) require a supermajority of 75% to pass. In this case, a minority of 26% has the veto power. Unfortunately, the smart contract in its current form (the version you and I agreed upon) doesn’t contain such kind of provisions yet.

While you might insist on inflation being a political or human right issue, most other token holders might see it as a simple business decision, namely, are you willing to have less say in the DAO so that kyber as a whole becomes more valuable. In another word, would you rather be the captain of a rowboat or the chief mate of a cruise ship?

Companies issue new stocks all the time, for capital, expertise, technologies or other reasons. A great number of Fortune 500 companies have lost majority shareholder status long ago after multiple rounds of IPOs. The good news is, the shares of most of them have increased tens or hundreds of times.

Your choice of principles over short term profit or growth is certainly admirable. However, it would be quite a stretch to apply those principles to for-profit business ventures, not to mention a DAO governed by a smart contract

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Hey interesting idea! I think it’d be great if you created a separate topic with this idea all together to maybe get some more discussion going around it!

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It’s some sort of common enterprise designed to earn token holders some income.

No, we are not protecting life, or liberty, we are protecting investors profits, In fact, is the ONLY task of a company. This doesn’t have to do with government, but is all has to do with investors profits.

If it is legal to dilute investors shares by minting more in the US, it should not be. The executive board that might also be composed of majority shareholders, they do that in order to avoid asking for loans at banks and paying interest, but is wrong.

26% is not a minority. The minority most absolute is the single individual share holder, who will basically get robbed by the will of the majority with a promise of a unicorn, he either has to accept or sell his stock. It sucks to have to sell the stock because you know they are forcing you to dilute your stock.

What it needs to be done is to provide the ideal conditions that will lead to LP’s and traders to use the platform, not just give them robbed KNC from the individuals KNC token holders to fund liquidity providers, this is creating FAKE conditions funded by inflation based robbery. It just much better to create the REAL conditions without using inflation based robbery to incentivize/subsidize LP’s artificially with investors money.

And then, the day we achieve some kind of short term success, we will not know if it was because we made a capital efficient platform for LP’s and traders (KyberSwap job is just to connect both, not to fund either party), or because we created Fake conditions using minted tokens to subsidize one party. In fact, people will believe the short term success is “real”, and may want to mint more KNC, then they will see more volume coming, then again let’s mint more KNC because minting KNC and giving away for free creates more volume, and so on and so on, like a vicious cycle. Is a kind of success that kyberswap is not earning by its own merits, which is to create the conditions and make it easier and capital efficient for traders and LP’s to use the platform. Having to rely in inflation to create fake conditions is not a merit.

Is debatable if we need to fund development with inflation, i might accept to fund development to make the platform better technologically, more capital efficient for LP’s and traders, but NOT to subsidizes any of both parties. If you subsidize LPs, of course you will see more volume, but not earned by merit of having the most efficient platform, is inflated volume by dilution of stock.

And then you guys tell me, if we inflate 1 million $ worth o KNC, we can earn 10 million worth of ETH in kyberDAO. You are selling me a unicorn.

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I would say yes for KNC migration proposal. As far as I know, token upgradability & dynamic supply will give the flexibility to KNC model & benefit all stakeholders as well.

In addition, there are 2 things I want to suggest to Kyber team:

  • Lesson learned form Ampl model: New KNC model should have both inflation/deflation mechanism along the way. When the demand of KNC is low, the rate of burn will exceed the rate of inflation that reduce the supply of KNC. When the demand is high (during KNC liquidity mining campaigns), the supply will increase faster than the burn, more new KNC will be minted to reward to Liquidity Providers.
  • During liquidity mining period: if any KNC holder doesn’t want his portion to be diluted, he can stake his KNC into KyberDAO to earn double-reward (Eth & minted KNC),

It’s just my initial idea. I hope the team can figure out better approaches to handle it well.

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I’m not a big fan of inflation but it looks at least making KNC more flexible is needed for us.

1 year ago, Kyber was the no.1 DEX in the world in terms of volume and most of us couldn’t foresee that AMM would be a key liquidity source in DeFi space today. DeFi trend is changeable and unpredictable.

KyberDAO should keep all options about KNC to deal with new situation.

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You simply state “inflation is bad” endlessly - in every single one of your numerous posts. I do not want to read the same stuff again and again. This should be a serious discussion about viable solutions / paths for KNC’s further development and success.

Simply saying “no inflation” is not enough - make up your mind and provide some actual proposals which would work better so we can discuss them. There are quite some posts above where some forum members did present such proposals (with actual figures to better illustrate them) - one of them being me.

You will agree that KNC simply has to do SOMETHING BIG in the near future to gain significant traction, otherwise all of us (KNC holders) will be the captain of a nutshell instead the first mate of a cruise ship (I like the comment above :-).

So what would be a better solution but please come up with something better than “L2 is the solution”.

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